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WEBINAR

Breaking Through: Advancing Disability Leadership

December 3, 2024

Transcript

Mary Liz McNamara: Let's let's start right now. Hello, everybody, and welcome to our webinar breaking through advancing disability leadership in honor of international day, of persons with disabilities. We wanted to focus our conversation today really on specifically on a path to leadership for employees with disabilities, especially for those who are mid-career. Sometimes we talk a lot about even kind of it feels like exclusively sometimes on that beginning getting a job onboarding people. But we wanted to focus today on mid-career issues and opportunities. I'm Mary Liz Mcnamara. I'm here with my partner, Michelle Whitman. We are founders of asset-based consulting Michelle, and I really see disability as an asset, and we work with organizations to really shift their culture. So they see disability as an asset to Michelle.

Michelle Witman: Awesome. I'm super thrilled to be here. And today we have 3 really fabulous panelists that are joining us for a discussion, and really a candid conversation, and we're gonna start by introducing each of them individually and asking each of them an initial question, and then we'll open up the conversation. So let's get started. We're going to start with a brief introduction or a biography about our dear friend Tanner. So Tanner Gears is a US Paralympian, an entrepreneur.

Mary Liz McNamara: Stop on that. A Paralympian. Okay?

Michelle Witman: Paralympian.

Tanner Gers: Okay.

Mary Liz McNamara: Yes. Yes. Okay.

Michelle Witman: An entrepreneur and a workforce visionary who's redefining disability, inclusion in the workplace. So, drawing from his own journey, tanner, co-founded accessibility officer and the DART Suite. So the DART suite to make disability readiness, and Ada compliance both achievable and scalable for businesses. So walking the Walk Tanner leads a team of more than 10 professionals with sensory, cognitive and motor disabilities. And what he's doing is he's proving that inclusion is not just possible, but that it's actually transformative. So, Tanner, let's get started by talking about, you know how we go about identifying talent. So how are organizations going about maturing talent who happen to have a disability.

Tanner Gers: Super tough question. I hope that they are I mean, I personally happen to have a permanent disability. I'm totally blind. But you know, I became blind as an adult, you know, after a bad auto accident, and you know I would. I would challenge organizations to think like or to remind them that hey people that are 40 years or older have a 30% chance of getting a long term disability before they're retiring, and the average length of that disability is 3 and a half years. Right? So not, you know, disability, readiness and developing leaders, you know, just like you're doing right now with people without disabilities should be something that we we should be thinking about for people like me, but also people not like me. People probably more like you, because what happens if you happen to get a disability and your talent is trying to to rise up in the leadership. You've identified talent that should be rising up so But the the short answer is, is that how we should how we should be maturing talent should meet the person where they're at, just like any other leadership or executive training program. Right? It should be tailor, tailor fit to to fill in the gaps where that person is and help them along their way. A lot of people with disabilities, unfortunately, did not get that same kind of 1st job internship college working experience that I got right, that professional maturation that allows me to understand how the world works. And working as an adult. You know, also understanding work, culture, politics. how to create value and navigate those situations so that you can, you know, rise into that. You know, talent, identification, and leadership position. So one meet the person where they're at, and 2 ask them and engage in that conversation.

Mary Liz McNamara: Thank you, Tanner, that's great. Let's bring up Alma. Hi, Alma, Alma Keita is a benefits, and Hr. Leader with more than 10 years of experience. She's currently at one of our favorite places, Sy partners, a consulting firm based in New York City, and she handles all things, benefits, accommodations, leave of absence, absence, time off all those things. You name it, and she does also the classic Hr. Work she loves pushing the barriers in this space, and Michelle and I can. We've seen her in action. She's not always doing things, because that's how we've always done it. So she's really interested in changing on the front end of that change. She lives in Colorado, and the Rocky Mountain views never get old in case you're wondering. She also enjoys traveling and reconnecting with Bosnian culture, where she's originally from. Welcome Alma! Thanks for joining us today. So I we really wanted to have this HR perspective. And you anybody better than you to to fill in for us. Do you feel that the attitudes about disability, capacity have changed over the course of your career and and kind of where we are right now, and what are the possible next steps for Hr. In building this mid-career opportunities.

Alma Keita: Oh, absolutely. My experience has been in the beginning of my career. There was, and, I think, in the country, and possibly worldwide, and as someone with a with a disability. There's a lot of mental health stigma. I remember speaking to someone and being so excited that I was going to therapy. And I remember the person reacting. Why do you need that? Now? The tone is is very different. It's wow! That's really awesome. I'm so glad you're doing that. What are you learning and what I'm noticing in the HR space with companies is there's this culture of acceptance, curiosity, understanding, wanting to learn what I've experienced in the past is making assumptions like a lot of companies were making assumptions of what people need, people with disabilities and what they may need, or what what they may not need. What we've noticed at SYP. This is a company that is very progressive in the sense that I'm sure both of you experience this. There's not a lot of red tape here. We're willing to try, and if it doesn't work, we're very open to feedback from from employees. So I would challenge every Hr. Professional or anybody that at that works at a company to really explore this space, to provide accessibility, to provide inclusive inclusivity for folks with disability, and just try, and similar to what Tanner was saying. Meet them where they are, and ask them what they need. Just assumptions do not lead us to to a good space in terms of what we can do. What we found at SYP through our work with ABC. Is initially what's the low hanging fruit that you can make available to folks? And something we discovered? Are our self directed accommodations. What are the rituals resources that we can tap that we already have that are amazing, that folks can use an example of that that I personally use is heads downtime. We we coin that here at SYP heads downtime, where you're carving out a space for yourself. silencing all notifications, all distractions. We all know all those messaging systems and and the noise. Yeah, constantly. It can be very distracting to actually have heads down, time to work. And so we coin the phrase of heads down time where you carve out this space. Your manager knows you're in this space. No one's reaching out to you, or they shouldn't be. So you can focus on this work. So we've compiled these self directed accommodations. So folks have access to them and they're all in one place is what we're what we notice is we have all of these great resources. Why don't we just put them into one place for folks to read through and actually have access to what we're looking to do in the New Year that I think all HR leaders should look into is training our managers on disability accessibility. How do you approach conversations when someone does share something. Please don't act like a therapist. That's what I've noticed in the Hr. Space is a lot of people jump to being a fixer thinking that. Let me help. Let me help this person in a way of let me fix instead of let me just listen and thank them for sharing. So we're looking into that in the New Year, and I hope all HR leaders will equip their managers. With this knowledge and amazing information to help our employees be successful.

Mary Liz McNamara: Wow!

Michelle Witman: Well.

Mary Liz McNamara: Amazing Work.

Michelle Witman: And I'm super excited to dig into the conversation. But before we do, I wanna an opportunity to introduce Montreece, Peyton Hardy. Montreece, come on up. The water's fine. I'm just kidding. We're going to highlight you in a second and great. Here you are. Montreece is the co-director of the Abide department in the American Printing House for the blind APH, where your focus is on inclusion and equitable learning in the workplace. So with extensive experience in support, education, training, and strategic advising. Montreece offers a unique perspective to drive advocacy and change in front accessibility and inclusive language. So, Montreece, we've had the honor of collaborating alongside you at Asset base consulting. But you've also collaborated with others, including the city of Rochester, in Minnesota, the NBC suites in Louisville, unlearning Ableism and disabled by Society, which is based in the Uk. As well as the National Career Development Association, the NCDA. The Blind Institute for Technology and bold, blind beauty to educate on topics such as disability, pride, and intersectionality. So you are known for your thoughtful and holistic planning and training methodology. And you definitely bring unique genuine perspectives on disability, inclusion into hiring accommodations, internal organizational policies and procedures as well as onboarding and engagement. And so I'm going to start by the conversation with you by kicking off a question. We talk about a lot about the disability tax which includes the extra costs, the efforts, and the sheer hassle that people with disabilities often have to deal with in their daily lives and that includes work. Can you speak to what the disability tax looks like, or could look like for mid-career professionals.

Montreece Payton-Hardy (She/Her/Ella): Absolutely. That's such a great question. 1st of all, hello to everyone, and.

Michelle Witman: Oh, yeah

Montreece Payton-Hardy (She/Her/Ella): And I am so excited to be working with Michelle and Mary Liz again. It is always a pleasure and nice to connect with everyone here that said as a mid career professional. Even this. The timing of this is so perfect. Because this year I just started this role with American printing house for the blind which I'm super excited about. I am half of our abide team, access belonging inclusion, diversity, and equity. And in this role. One of the 1st biggest things that I had to do was move to Louisville, Kentucky, because it was going to be on. Well, it's a hybrid role. Actually, that in itself, in 2024 for a professional with disabilities is interesting. And so I'll go into some details that are paired along with that. 1st I had to move from Houston, Texas, to Louisville, Kentucky, within one month with my 2 kids, and I'm a single mom as well, and one of the best things. Besides being a blind and low vision individual, my latest diagnosis has been Adhd. I am Adhd spicy, and I love it, and if there's anybody else who is Adhd spicy rock on, but all of that combined and putting that into this new experience as a leader who would be influencing decision, making and policy, and so on. And I'm moving. And I'm still having to mom. And then, of course, manage all of the dynamics of my blindness being low vision. And now, Adhd, too, there were a lot of things that I learned, and my employer learned one of the best things about APH which I would encourage for all employers. What they did was they were very flexible. There are a lot of new processes that are being implemented even particularly by my department. And we are speaking to a lot of new policies and procedures as more needs are developing. Speaking to these different points of accommodation and so on. And the onboarding process that we have here. Well, they have been very flexible. They notice, you know, these are all things that we need to grow into. We're learning all at the same time. So whatever you need, as long as you're communicating, and we'll communicate with you. That was the best thing that they could have done. And then they they did ask questions. There were multiple questions that were asked of me for what it was that I needed, and I was grateful for that, because we learned a lot. A few things as a mid career professional to have noted was that though I have my master's degree in education, and I've worked several different jobs. I've been working for over 20 over 25 years now I've never had to physically relocate, and that in itself came with a lot of challenges that even I didn't know exactly how to anticipate with that disability tax as well. You have your health care expenses. You have assistive technology devices that you have to consider. Okay, do I get this while I'm here? Do I move this with me? How does that go? There are other considerations. If it's going to be hybrid, like what makes the most sense in terms of your scheduling. Is that something that's going to be up to the employee alone? Or is that something that the team has to totally and completely work out. All of those details are really really important to consider ahead of time as an organization is hiring on disabled leaders. Then there's also like, what does career advancement look like? What is it? Once I'm like, I'm in my role. I'm here. I'm getting settled. I'm thinking I'm doing my future planning and my goal setting. And all of these things. We've finally made it here, and all of that. And now I'm settled in the position we're making some changes and some progress. But what could the future look like for me? Especially knowing that there again. number of dynamics that are being faced and and I know we're gonna dive into some more of these details. Yeah, yeah. So so I won't go into too many more. But.

Mary Liz McNamara: But it is. But you know, when you I think it's really interesting and important right now to just talk about that mid career, for many people involves changing jobs, or at least being able and willing to change jobs. Change sectors go into different directions. So let's bring Alma and Tanner back and join the conversation with us as we go forward. We have so much that we can talk about. But I'm going to get the ball rolling, really talking a little bit about, and kind of segueing with what Montreece was talking about in terms of mentoring and mentorship possibilities for employees with disabilities. What are. Have you had experience with mentoring? What are your thoughts about it again? Also the idea of when we're talking about mentoring for employees with disabilities? It sounds like to me. Sometimes the people who need the mentoring are the mentors themselves, so that they have. They're not making assumptions about the capacity of the people with disabilities. Anybody want to jump into that conversation, to talk specifically about mentoring for the future what what does it need to be for people with disabilities.

Montreece Payton-Hardy (She/Her/Ella): I could jump in actually and and I have offered this to a number of different employees, actually, of other organizations. What does that look like? 1st of all. there are times depending on what the work is, where it is important, like you said, to bring in the manager or the Supervisor. Possibly the person who is going to be managing that the person who needs the mentoring who's going to be having these growth conversations. I'm trying to get an idea of you know. Where? Where are you starting? What are your goals, and what is it that you want to do? And really, speaking specifically to that, it's helpful to go through various courses and learn from. I mean, this is the type of training that I do as well as far as learning about inclusive language, and what are some different phrases that we can say to make sure that we are being mindful of making sure that people that their dignity is maintained, etc, and not being demeaning, and also right, and yet at the same time we also don't want to push too much either, and everything is really, I think Alma might have said it, really asking questions and being guided by what the the Mentee wants, and where they see themselves. Letting their their desire guide what their experience is going to be, and then asking, How can I help along the way, and what are your expectations of me as your mentor? Those have been key practices.

Mary Liz McNamara: Ahmed that you were talking about. Okay. that's my partner is just the idea that there is ex an expectation of excellence. How do you foresee managers? When they're also dealing with accommodations, making sure that they are not lowering their expectations because they have an understanding that that a person is having accommodations.

Alma Keita: That's a great build, Mary Liz. We have a term here at SYP. It's called Duo. So managers and their direct reports there we try to help them build strong, trusting relationships in a duo. Their partners we try not to look at it as like, oh, I'm the employee, and there's my direct manager. There's some sort of separation there. We're we're all duos here. And I think it's again. It's very important as an Hr. Team to equip these managers with information. We can't be surprised if someone says something I don't know, like outlandish, or maybe they just don't understand. Just assume positive intent. They might not know. So it's really on us. We take the onus as a people team to equip our managers with the proper information and training. And that's what we're hoping to expand on in the New Year and something that we've learned before the person even joins SYP. What what do our job descriptions look like? Are they actually clear for folks with disabilities? Do they understand what they're signing up for? Or is it really vague? And then they join the job, and it's they have this sense of. I had no idea this is what the job description said. That's not very clear. And here I am not set up for success. So part of our process is, let's audit all of our job descriptions. Part of that duo is involving our managers and involving our department heads to actually get deep in with the people team because they're on the ground with the employees. We're we're we're an internal partner in the sense where we're supporting managers, employees. But we're not on project work. And so it's really important that we duo or collaborate with our managers and department heads to say is this job description very clear on what this person is signing up for, and what we have to teach our managers is certain terminology. We work in a fast paced environment. What does that actually mean? I've met folks with disabilities just like me where they read that. And they say I actually don't know what that means, so can you clarify? So that's part of our process, too, is, how do we clarify these clarify these points for folks who might not be on the same understanding level of that as you are. So it's always that collaboration and dual amongst people team managers, but also direct reports and their managers. It's always a partnership of understanding and always assuming positive intent and being curious. That's big.

Tanner Gers: I think it's I think it's very analogous to the to the mentorship side of it, too. Right? Like having that do having that that relationship right in order to have the trust to develop a mentor Mentee opportunity for growth, right? And then, you know, I think the theme, too, is beating them where they're at right understanding how to ask the questions. Michelle, I love your question. Would you bless us with it?

Michelle Witman: Sure, friend, what do you need to be successful?

Tanner Gers: I think what an incredible opportunity to create trust and open communication pathways with something so simple and authentic, and I think, as as leaders as as as mentors. If we have identified talent like, you know, engaging in that conversation about what is possible for them. Regardless of of societal perceptions or corporate perceptions about their disability, regardless of that. But you authentically seeing them and their talent, and asking that question, I think, could create a really great opportunity to to exercise some mentorship.

Mary Liz McNamara: Right. It's an expectation of success. And it's also a beginning of that conversation that is about your success. Like, we're, gonna we're actually gonna talk about this. We're not just gonna kind of have it be subterranean. But we're also going to talk about. What do you need to be successful? Kind of where do you see yourself in 5 years? What is? What can we do as an organization to get you there? What can you do as an individual to get the organization where we need to go to really involve people with disabilities in that conversation, as you should be doing with everybody. But I think, for a lot of people with disabilities, especially those lowered expectations. And the and the hassle, you know, as we talked about with the hassle of accommodations, the hassle of all kinds of things. You kind of don't focus on that conversation to the same extent as you do with other people.

Michelle Witman: You know, I wanna pause and say 2 quick things. I'll come back to my second thing. My 1st thing is, I wanna make sure. People know that we want to keep this. You know, conversational, and also know that we've got. You know, we have a bunch of attendees who may have questions they wanna ask, so feel free to throw your questions into the QA. And we can really speak to them or try to answer them either here or afterwards as well. But back to the question that that tenor asked about, you know when we it reminds me, it reminds me when I when I started with that question, it's like, Really, friend, right? Instead of just saying, What do you need to be successful? We start with the concept of friend which speaks back to Alma's point, around the duo right and around the mentorship, and having a safe opportunity to engage, kind of and ask like and say what my needs are, and that's so incredibly important. And and what we're kind of seeing. Mary. Liz and I are kind of seeing when we're in the space is like this return to hierarchical structure of these power dynamics. So the concepts around the duo and the concepts around leveling the playing field and being like we're just speaking human to human again. And also we are also keeping it professional. Here I'm asking, what can I do to help you be successful to grow yourself here on the job in a professional setting. So it's really it's it's nice to see that all like we've all kind of landed in that same spot. Lunch is good.

Montreece Payton-Hardy (She/Her/Ella): Can I add to this, too? As we're talking about this process? I love this concept of this duo and I also really appreciate that. You said that you're leading with the curiosity. These are educator terms. So I really like those. But I want to make sure that we also emphasize how important it is to follow through all the way through, like to completion, and even circle back in terms of feedback, and then make sure that it's a part of the conversation on mentorship and partnering. asking the question about what does feedback look like and sound like to you? If there, that's a whole other conversation, as far as is there a feedback culture established in your organization? And one that is equitable. I really hope that the noise is canceling on my end. I'm sorry, friends, but in terms of feedback, what does it look like? What is valuable feedback to you? Just to make sure that even those conversations as mentors and mentees do tend to have to have make sure that it's something that is feasible for the mentee. In addition to that, just making sure that it's clear that the onus for following up and following through is on both. It shouldn't necessarily have to be just on the mentee and not on the leader, so that it really does feel as collaborative for anybody and everybody as Alma was describing. I really loved what you were saying, Alma. Thank you.

Mary Liz McNamara: When we were talking just before we started, the webinar talking about like the obvious things in in, they're not maybe so obvious, but the really important kind of structural things that have to be in place. People have to have access to accommodations. The process needs to be focused on people and not focused on a medical model. It's a social model where you're talking about. What do you need to be successful? And you make that process easy to engage in comfortable for all the parties, and quick. And if that's not, if all those 3 things are not happening, there's going to be an additional burden for people with disabilities as they go through their employment. And then, just also just this continual focus on accessibility, physical digital accessibility across the board, not waiting for somebody to say, Oh, I need something to be accessible, but that we're working on it proactively from the very beginning

Alma Keita: Interesting.

Michelle Witman: Go ahead!

Alma Keita: I was. I was actually going to ask to come back to that point. Because what I've noticed as an Hr person, and I don't. I don't think it's something conscious that we do. I think it's in our culture, and our society is. Accommodations are so medically driven where it's like my doctor said this. Therefore and what we're trying to do at Syp, and I know it's going to take time. But it's worthwhile work is shifting this model of emphasis on Doctor Driven being reactive versus like the employee drives this. The employee is a duo with someone like Alma. So what do you need to be successful. What barriers can we remove things like? I'll coin it from Youtube rocks, pebbles, and boulders like, what can we remove to make you feel successful that you can actually do your job. It's not all my receives this doctor's documentation from this employee's position, or whoever it may be. I guess we have to change the whole job job description because the doctor said so. We're framing our minds in a cultural way where we're not necessarily necessarily relying on these practitioners, but they're a resource. And so then we also loop in managers. Maybe they're also a resource. But it's really the employee driving this to help them be successful in their everyday. Let's call it Syp life, or wherever else they work. So thanks for bringing us back to that.

Michelle Witman: So just to loop everybody in. So so 1st of all, it goes back to like removing red tape right, keeping it human centered, removing the unnecessary red tape and getting people access that they can show up and do their job right. One of the things that you spoke about and you mentioned is this concept of pebbles, rocks, and boulders which Mary Liz and I really preach, and and it's everywhere in our shirts and on our every. But basically, the concept is, it's everybody's responsible.

Mary Liz McNamara: Have stickers.

Michelle Witman: We have stickers, use stickers. We dms.

Mary Liz McNamara: Make that big of a commitment. We have stickers. Yeah.

Michelle Witman: But basically, the concept is basic, it's everybody's responsibility. It's where can we go? And how can we proactively identify where there are pebbles, rocks and boulders where there are barriers, and how collectively and individually can we go and actively, proactively remove them ahead of time, and I'll loop Tanner in to discuss a little bit around that in the digital space. And then also, though when a boulder does appear and a pebble does appear proactively attempting to remove it and get it out of the way, so it doesn't come back again. Right? So it's this concept of where their potential pebble docks and boulders. And can I remove them proactively? Tanner thoughts.

Tanner Gers: Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, I've been saying this for a little bit, but you know we got to stop calling it. Accommodations like these are just tools to help people optimize their efficiency and productivity and performance so that you can be a better business. And so if you're going to buy a CRM. That's because you don't want to write it down on paper right? Like, if you're going to buy any type of software, there's a value that's gonna allow your employees to do something better, and that's all. An accommodation is, aside from something like a like a screen reader or something where severe disabilities like requiring that. Yeah, that's an accommodation. But most accommodations are really just tools to help people do their job better. And that's a great investment for brilliant. Yeah, you know. So we have people with cognitive impairments on our on our team and me buying a tool that's 30, 40 50 bucks a month. Not only, you know, across the team. Not only is it going to help them do their job right. It's going to help other people like, write better emails, and, you know, read things faster and understand things more. You know my business partner, you know I'm a very oral person, and I'm blind, and she's a very visual person and not great at the oral side, right? And so. But we make it work right with the right tools and systems in place. And it's not an accommodation. It's just how the business works and how you can set it up for optimization. I think to be tactical. You also want to think about the future right? It's all about the reducing the total cost of ownership here, right? And in order to do that, we can have, like simple procurement things in place and testing and monitoring tools that allow you to efficiently make sure that things are accessible to everyone but also optimize for that efficiency.

Mary Liz McNamara: And I think you know, when we're talking about Kenny talked about before the idea that people are going to become disabled as they get older in the workforce, even if they're not starting out as identifying as having a disability. So what for those people? What is the impact of being part of of a place like SY Partners where they are really talking about excellence, there, where accommodations are easy to access, where managers have the ability to be flexible that that prepares, though that group of people who will become disabled at some point in their work life to pivot quickly and to get the things that they need to be successful rather than what often happens is, people think it's a shameful thing. I'm not going to talk about it. I'm just going to push through as much as I can, and then usually it's an often in a performance review when someone starts to say, Well, this is what's been going on for me rather than actively looking for the things they need to be successful, and to be able to continue to work.

Michelle Witman: You know.

Tanner Gers: Yeah, I mean.

Michelle Witman: Go ahead, Tanner!

Tanner Gers: Oh, yeah, I was. Gonna say, this is like what you're speaking to. Mary. Liz is like escaping a quarterly mindset to to build a business that's that's best in the long term, right? Like, your people are going to see these investments in your company, in people right? And that's gonna you know it. It results in retention which results in lower Hr. Costs right, and it's all you know. It all builds upon itself. But it's escaping this quarterly mindset and and shifting to a mindset of like this is what we're going to do. And we're going to learn and build along the way we're going to meet ourselves where we're at and do what we have to do one step at a time along this journey. So it's iterative. It's learning. And the most important thing is moving forward.

Mary Liz McNamara: Right.

Michelle Witman: I have a I have a question about that in terms of culture so like and and that's our partners do example. But this is with a lot of corporations that we work with. How do? People will come into an organization? And they'll say we've got these resources, or one person will say, I'm using grammarly, or someone is using a speech to text. But or we'll work with people that are working with an eap, for instance. But the usability are, you know, their usability rate is so low. So the question is is like, how do we really change the cultures that the conversations are happening, and people know what tools and resources that low hanging fruit that Alma was kind of speaking to like, know what's available and see that it's being used. You know, throughout the organization. Again, one of the things that we talk about is like the ability for our C-suite people to have personalization at work without having to report it out. So how do we engage that C-suite level to share back down what personalization looks like, and to really kind of shift that, or bring that conversation up. Forward.

Alma Keita: I can say a couple of things that oh, Tanner, you wanna go. please. No, please take it. Take it. A couple of things for the C-suite. I think it goes back to relationships for me as an Hr. Benefits professional. It's really important for me to have tight trusting connections with the C-suite. And my version of that is, we're not always talking about work. Do you have kids? What do you like to do for fun? I know with my injury. I wanted everyone to know a little little bit about me, because I'm not just an employee at sy partners. So that's that's my secret sauce on how to build a relationship with folks is get to know them personally like, remember their pets names, remember their kids names, remember their favorite vacation spot. You really really build credibility there in a foundation, then to dig deeper into educate, educating them on accessibility. And what is a disability? What's the difference between neurodiverse and neurodivergent Michelle. We talked about this, that people are constantly interchanging that word. And it's actually not the same thing. And so: that's part of it. What I've noticed in the many different companies I've worked at in terms of how do we communicate these benefits? How do we communicate these self directed accommodations. You really need to understand your employee base, and how they receive information. So, Syp, we're very slack heavy. Our CEO post in slack messages that you should be probably reading and taking action on when we have open enrollment. It's all in slack. I've worked at firms where the internal messaging system is simply a quick message where everything lives in email. So it's really understanding your employee base and how they receive information. I did have an employee give me feedback once to say, Alma, my mind is everywhere. I am so busy. If you're sending anything more than 5 bullets respectfully, I'm not reading it. Can we change this up? And I I think I've told Mary Liz and Michelle syps are not shy to feedback. They're not shy to providing insight or saying, Hey, this doesn't work for us. Can you change it? And I think also listening to your employees as much as you may think as an Hr. And benefits person. This is gold. This will work be open to being flexible to that, not working. It may have worked elsewhere. But you really really have to flex to your employee, base and understand how they receive information.

Mary Liz McNamara: And be willing to change, you know, to be willing to say the the conversation isn't saying this isn't working for me. That's not the end of the conversation. That's the beginning.

Alma Keita: Right.

Mary Liz McNamara: The conversation.

Alma Keita: And don't take it. Personally, I know sometimes in the Hr. Space is like, well, I've been doing this for decades. How could they say that. But you're dealing with such different people across industries, across companies you know. It's not a dig. It's it's the employees, at least at Syp are saying this to help you, so then you can help them be more successful.

Michelle Witman: To remove the pebbles. The rocks in the boulder.

Alma Keita: Right, exactly.

Michelle Witman: Over 10, or you were gonna say something, and then Monte.

Tanner Gers: Oh, I no, I think Alma said it. Great.

Montreece Payton-Hardy (She/Her/Ella): I just wanted to add to what Alma was saying that well not that it really needed, but at the same time to add to like thinking through the question, how are things being communicated and thinking about the various ways you're accommodating multiple intelligences. And this is regardless of disability. You you just are like a neurodiverse space to dive just a tiny, tiny bit deeper into that, a neurodiverse space that does include neurotypical as well as those who are under the neurodivergent umbrella. And so you have people who receive knowledge sharing in all of these different ways. And so, in addition to email like, you were saying, Alma, there's here at Aph, we also practice information being shared through podcasts and internal podcasts, other newsletters, emails and then, of course, coming together virtually for multiple meetings. What we did notice, though is. And this is full transparency. And this is not just existing here. I'm sure it's in a number of different organizations as well, a huge barrier that ends up being an even bigger barrier for mid-career professionals who have disabilities are silos actually, when there are silos between departments and and overall in company culture. It can really challenge overall performance productivity honestly for everyone. But in particular we've noticed a trend in this for mid-care professionals. So it's particularly those with disabilities, and trying to find all of these different ways to communicate with or get information from others where there's just not a clear pathway to communicate. And so what we've noticed as I love this whole pebble, pebble boulder situation. I don't know why I haven't heard that before, but one way.

Mary Liz McNamara: We're going to send you information about it.

Montreece Payton-Hardy (She/Her/Ella): Send it to me. I want the stickers. I want it all the T-shirts everything. I want.

Michelle Witman: Yeah, it's the best montreece. It's the back of my sweatshirt. It says if you remove pebbles, rocks, and boulders today.

Montreece Payton-Hardy (She/Her/Ella): Yes. Oh, my goodness! Well, one huge way that we have learned to do that is through policy, policy, company, wide policy. And what are the specifics? Specific policies for communications and standard procedures, even? What does that look like? And of course you want to be mindful of how much standardization is happening. But at the same time, as long as there's something that is enforceable that is documented somewhere. And one would think this may be really really basic, not necessarily, and not all organizations. something that policies and procedures in place that are even more so helpful for the what is it? The activities and the work that are happening that's happening with teams that are potentially led by people with disabilities. And what I've also learned as a mid-career professional is that I have far more conversations, asking, Well, what does the policy say? If there's something that's going on, and I have to advocate for myself tools that I need, and so on and so forth. One of the 1st questions that's going to be asked, or that I am encouraging others to ask is, well, what is the policy, and what is this procedure? And how does this? How is this broken down? Where does that information live? All of that? So as long as all of those details are really fleshed out. Then that could be really helpful, for honestly, that's that's helpful for everyone. But I just wanted to like Pop that in there, too, just to give some specific detail.

Mary Liz McNamara: You talked about. You know, Silo, the the silo effect, and I think sometimes with employees, with disabilities, their disability becomes their primary identity to their colleagues and their managers. And and so it became. It becomes like support. We're talking about support for employees with disabilities rather than as I'm was talking about this search for excellence, the expectation of of success and long term planning within the organization to move into leadership. It doesn't happen on its own, so it has to be kind of specific, and it has to be beyond this kind of understanding that oh, I want to support people with disabilities. I want to. I need. I'm a leader. I'm pretending I'm a CEO. I'm a leader of an organization. I need to have people with disabilities coming through the ranks because they are excellent workers. They're creative. They're interesting. They have different experiences. I need that. That's kind of like an Roi approach. But it's a little bit different than just this support mantra. That is the kind of the limit that I hear in some organizations. They want to be supportive, but they don't want to expect excellence. Anybody want to add to that that kind of issue that I see in some organizations? Alright. So we solve that problem. Good good.

Tanner Gers: Hmm.

Alma Keita: Mary Liz. I think it goes back to the moving from a medical model to a social model. I still think it boils down to that is, and it takes. And it takes time. So it's not going to happen overnight. It's not going to happen by you sending an email or creating some sort of does. Well designed. Pdf, and the reason, I say, well designed, is, I think you both have learned that design is a very big thing at Syp. We're very proud of that, and it has to design has to.

Mary Liz McNamara: We do magic. That's like the syp.

Alma Keita: It is beautiful and I can't be. I definitely can't do it. So I always have to tap a designer. But I think it's taking the time showing grace and patience, and consistently and like what I've learned as someone with a disability is like, I need a lot of repetition. I need to see the materials all the time and so like doing. One announcement is not going to move the needle.

Montreece Payton-Hardy (She/Her/Ella): Absolutely.

Alma Keita: Or having one training is not going to move the needle. You have to keep giving people information, but in different ways, based on how they absorb it and it just takes time. Patience and grace is what I always try to fall back on. Tanner. I think you wanted to say something.

Tanner Gers: No I you know: it's difficult for for bid level professionals right trying to to navigate things. And if we're, you know, if we're trying to, you know, support those individuals right? Just creating frictionless outcomes is is really important, right? But also we've got to get sponsorship for those things, and so, being able to tie those, you know, misappropriately labeled accommodations to actual business outcomes like, Hey, my team is more effective. Now, You know I'm doing this. I think you know, that's I think that's a bigger gap, right? And then when we start to see those I mean, I would, I would say right like, if we can then extend that executive sponsorship right across the suite. Then we might be able to see some more systemic changes. But you know, just getting 1 1 champion at the C-suite on board isn't enough. And so this is, you know, this is, you know, gets back to that earlier thing where like it, it takes a mindset shift and it's an uncomfortable conversation, because, unfortunately, this talks to unconscious bias, and that is so deeply rooted generationally in our society. you know I discriminated against myself when I became disabled. Right? So for sure, this is happening at the C-suite. For sure, this is happening in predominant people. This is for sure happening where people are ashamed of disability. So that unconsciously, is a problem that we need to address. So.

Michelle Witman: Tanner is the recommendation, then or or not the suggestion. But the need that I'm hearing you say is that we need to get into the C-suites and engage in those really challenging, uncomfortable conversations yesterday. But today, right? And really go and flip their their assumptions around capacity, around disability around all of it. And so and and maybe that may be a significant call to action. That, like it's enough, is enough. You know, we're we're talking about these things. But we really need those champions on the C-suite level to really, be more than just a significant like a sponsor like, yeah, I'll be a sponsor for that erg, but really to engage all of them in the conversation, of creating significant pathways, clear pathways for people with disabilities to grow within the organization.

Mary Liz McNamara: I mean, when Michelle and I work with an organization, one of the 1st things we look at is just how many times is the word disability uttered.

Michelle Witman: Right

Mary Liz McNamara: Oh! How is it in.

Tanner Gers: It's not.

Mary Liz McNamara: Yeah.that's 1 way of measuring how comfortable people are talking about it. We're talking about those group of people who are become disabled during their working life. If they've never heard of disability, no one is talking, and no one has spoken about mental health, no one has. It's just not part of the culture to even address it. They're not going to be comfortable, saying, Oh! Raising their hand and saying, Wait a minute.I need things. It's that.

Tanner Gers: Yeah.

Mary Liz McNamara: They're already starting from a very difficult period, I mean, Michelle and I both came from higher Ed and you know one of the things that we both talked about a lot with this idea, that every accommodation really is a reflection of a poorly designed curriculum. You know it is, it is every every.

Tanner Gers: That's right.

Mary Liz McNamara: In reflects inaccessibility that wasn't, you know, dealt with by universal design, and that that same kind of mindset applies to corporate life, to business life, to work, life.

Tanner Gers: Well, people with disabilities are people first right? And and yeah and and I never, you know. So I grew up in the South right. And so I have a lot of you know I have friends with a lot of ethnic diversity right predominantly black. And when I was growing up. And then my mom, you know, went to school later on and did a graduate degree at, you know, University of Houston. And I was around a lot of other eclectic people right? And so but I was never, ever. When I when I got an interview I got the job period, and but when I became disabled overnight, just how people treated me differently, it was. It was incomprehensible like I just didn't understand. And then I felt so bad right, because I didn't understand how my friends like just being a person like they were discriminated against. And it was in the medical field. This was in the education field. It was definitely in the corporate environment. And and you know, until you until you really become the difference, you don't really understand that difference. And so there's so much work to be done. There's so much work to be done. I I hate these notifications in Zoom. I wish you guys would really figure this out. There's so much work that needs to be done. That I you know I'm really excited about the opportunity ahead.

Michelle Witman: Tanner my apologies. We set it up for a question and answer, and someone wrote a question and someone else answer it, and it seems to send a ding potentially to people. So we didn't mean to cut you off if it if it interrupted your thought, I give you permission to interrupt me at any point when it pops back into your if it comes back in so I'm going to read the question and the and the response that came into the QA. What the anonymous question that came in was, What can we do as an Hr. To systemize providing accommodations as part of talent management, including recruitment, performance, management, and professional development. Alma jumped in with an initial response, saying, I would say it's a few things. One review your job descriptions and audit accordingly. If you don't know how to do that tap professionals such as ABC. Thinks to train your Ta team, your talent acquisition team on accessibility, and what it means, as well as how to handle and any accommodation questions during the interview process and 3 have a clear and concise accommodations process clear and consistent language duo with employees, tap managers, and doctors as if needed, but know this process is employee driven and have follow ups in place. Great and Tara sorry, someone, Tara asked. The Panelists. Language shift get to. Not need to work with people with disabilities.So when we were talking. Presumably Tara thinks great clarification or great. Add to the value. Add to the conversation, you know it's it's not that you need to work with people with disabilities. It's an opportunity it is, you know. It is privilege and honor. And you get to work with people who are innovative, who are smart, who are forward thinking and who belong driving, you know, building the table rather than having a seated. It.

Mary Liz McNamara: And one is just the recognition that when we're talking about apparent disabilities, we're talking about a small portion of the amount of the number of people who have disabilities in the workplace. So there's a much. This is a much larger group than often organizations are aware of the number of people who are requesting accommodations is very low compared to the people who need or would benefit from flexibility and accommodations, so.

Tanner Gers: This. Yeah, this is this, this is that generational people with disabilities know they're going to get discriminated against. And so they duct tape and glue together, solutions to solve problems, to overcome the barriers that they face systemically in everyday life right and and so often to your point, like accommodations, are just like, or, you know, are really just software solutions to to optimize our team's efficiency. So it's like, I want to even like, move away from this term accommodations, because like, oh, because I have Adhd, or oh, because, like I, you know, blah blah, it's like these are just tools that we need to be supplying our people so that they can be the best, the best people possible, and and we can win as a business.

Mary Liz McNamara: Right? Well, sometimes I think organizations when they start to work with Michelle and me sometimes the 1st thing that they talk about is we want to boost self. Id. We want it.

Tanner Gers: Well, yes, I agree with you there. Yeah, I mean.

Mary Liz McNamara: How we just.

Tanner Gers: If you're less than 20%, then you're doing something wrong right? Because then you've created a culture that doesn't ex that doesn't open, that it's not open to them.

Mary Liz McNamara: But the question, then the second question is, why do you want to boost self id. If you really what you really want to do is boost efficiency and get people what they need to to succeed, and they may not have to disclose.

Tanner Gers: And how about trust?

Mary Liz McNamara: How about team?

Tanner Gers: You know how about ownership? Right? Like, if if I'm if I'm at an org, you know, yeah I've worked at a couple of different organizations, right? That you would think that have things together, and it's like they don't right. And you know, I I was tied to missions and visions right. But I didn't have that sense of ownership because they didn't meet me exactly where I was at. And what if what if you guys could do that with your people.

Mary Liz McNamara: So let's just do. We have just a few minutes left. I would like you to the panelists to tell us kind of if you could look in the crystal ball, or if you could just have a wish list. tell one thing that you would like organizations to really focus on in the year year ahead till our next December 3rd. One thing that you think is doable in the next year for organizations who are listening here for participants. Montreece.

Montreece Payton-Hardy (She/Her/Ella): I had a feeling you were gonna call me first and I hope that I don't steal this. But I'm stealing it, Alma. just because that would. It's been my biggest takeaway. To be honest, I love that you mentioned that low hanging fruit. I think that that is a huge action, easy item for companies to look at, self, directed tools, self-directed processes to get away from what Tanner is saying, as far as self-direct accommodations and write it down, and then make sure that everyone is is aware of where that information is. Maybe you know, train to it, lunch and learn on it, etc. But that that is so simple. It's a far more simple than anyone could even imagine. And then, just making sure that that information is consistently communicated out, so that employees are empowered to think through what is going to help them be more productive and support their performance. But they're they're all of these controllables. But many times we just don't know, because no one's talking about it, and no one has named it so that.

Mary Liz McNamara: Make that list of what's available and make sure. And and to Alma's point before not just once. Keep the messaging out there several times over and over. This is what we have for you to reach your potential Alma. What's your low hanging fruit that we can share for this year? People can take and take away from today's webinar.

Alma Keita: I would say it's exactly that. And then for us, I I do think even the manager trainings that we're planning to do with ABC. In the New Year in 2025. I I mean I I will say that in a way that also is low hanging fruit. We have the resource. We know people want it. They're curious. They're interested. So why not leap and do it right? And it may not be perfect. And people may have a lot of questions, but that just means we keep going, and don't be afraid. I think I've seen a lot of Hr. Professionals say like, what if I get it wrong. What happens? I'm like, then you get feedback and you take the feedback and and you remain humble, and you move forward, and you do the best you can.

Mary Liz McNamara: Wonderful thanks, Alma.

Michelle Witman: Tanner.

Mary Liz McNamara: Oh!

Tanner Gers: Yeah, I would say that something that's pretty easy to do would just be take a look at your procurement policies and and and practices right for accessibility and what your vendor management strategy is, you can do some really simple things to up to educate or guide people who are buying stuff on behalf of your organization. That's really going to prevent, you know, headaches down the line in terms of like 88 lawsuits or just people problems with regards to inaccessible platforms or or clunky platforms. So I would take a look at your procurement practices, and if you need help with that, let me know.

Mary Liz McNamara: Fantastic. I just want to thank the panelists. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. We knew that you 3 would be terrific, and you were you delivered. So thank you so much for that. And to everybody who came and shared the hour with us. We appreciate your time, your interest in this important topic, and we look forward to seeing you all time. Soon.

Michelle Witman: It's a fantastic way to celebrate the day, you know, so congratulations, and thank you everybody for coming and joining, and and let's stay in touch.

Mary Liz McNamara: Carol.

Michelle Witman: Happy, when.

Alma Keita: Bye-bye.

Mary Liz McNamara: Bye, bye.

Tanner Gers: Bye.