Mary Liz McNamara: Welcome everybody. We're excited to have you here. If we have everybody ready, I think we'll just dive into this conversation about elevating blind and low vision talent. We're very excited to have this great panel. We're going to talk about blind and low vision leaders, how they're revolutionizing problem-solving and innovation in corporate America. And we're going to look at some real world success stories from leaders at Disney live, Aira and the Clinton Foundation. I'm Mary Liz McNamara. I'm one of the co-founders of Asset Based Consulting. And I'm here with somebody else who's going to introduce herself.

Michelle Witman: Hi, everybody! My name is Michelle Witman. I'm also the co-founder at Asset Based Consulting, and Mary Liz and I are thrilled to be bringing this webinar series out to everybody with really the focus of just thinking about how we can advance disability leadership within all organizations of all sizes. And today we're thrilled to have really pulled together an incredible group of panelists that you know that that are that that have so much value to add to the conversation. So just a quick overview of how we're gonna run things today, we're going to do in a brief introduction and throw a question or ask a question of each panelists, and they'll have about 3 to 4 min to answer the question. And then, after we're done with our introductory questions, we're really gonna throw it over to, you know, just to have a broader conversation, and we'll see where things go with that conversation, and we'll, of course provide opportunities for people who are are live here in, who are attending to ask questions as well, and and then we'll close it up at the at the at the top of the next hour.

Michelle Witman: Ready to dive in, Mary Liz?

Mary Liz McNamara: Yep, I am. I mean, it really sounds like we're kind of gamifying it. We introduce people, and 3 to 3 to 4 min to talk, and then we push you off stage. But anyway, here we go. The first, I'd like to introduce Phlip Wilson. He is a sales account executive for Aira. He also has 13 years of experience as a sign language interpreter, providing Aira sponsored, interpreting at events such as the monthly a11y NYC Meetup, and for flight for sight. The nonprofit that gives grants to members of the blind community to travel the world and share their stories. So it's just a big kind of introductory question for you, Phlip. So just tell me why is blind, low vision, and visually impaired leadership a priority for you.

Phlip Wilson: Hmm

Mary Liz McNamara: The big question.

Phlip Wilson: Yeah. Hi, I'm Phlip Wilson, that's who I am. I came to Aira in June. So really, quite recently, I've been here less than a year. One of the people who interviewed me was Everette, and one of the 1st things I asked him was what is required reading and he said, Freedom for the Blind, by James Omvig, which I then subsequently read. Anybody can go and read that it is available online for free. It's actually harder to get in print than it is to get online and have access to it. So I, I came in completely ignorant in a lot of ways the deaf community had done a really good job of educating me about what my space was and not to take ownership over space. That wasn't my space. And so I would never have considered, even with 5 years of the Department of Education, never considered applying for, like a position of a superintendent of a deaf school, for example. And there's a lot of leadership held in that space. And there's even an organization called Innovy. There's a for-profit organization that places seeks deaf talent, and places them in positions of leadership. And so, and I came to the blind community and was immediately like reading freedom for the blind, listening to living blindly, Jonathan Motion's podcast and seeing less blind leadership than I expected. I've just. It's just been a. It's just been stuck in my craw ever since. It's an issue that I would like to see resolved, I'd like to see. And I don't know what the solution is, but it it bugs me basically on the on the daily. We had a couple of major incidences this summer with visions Australia and with the Helen Keller National Center and we haven't resolved those entirely yet, either. Yeah, I guess I have more questions about it than I've answered. I'm here to listen.

Michelle Witman: Well, we're we're thrilled to have you and and thrilled to be partnering with Aira. So I'm gonna move now over to Mr. Michael Smedley. Michael Smedley is an innovator in audio accessibility and in storytelling. So a little bit about Michael. Michael is breaking barriers in sound design, accessibility, and beyond. He was born with CRB1-LCA blindness. He works on the audio systems, design team at Disney live in entertainment, crafting immersive experiences that captivate audiences of all abilities. A summa cum laude graduate of Penn State University, go Penn. Michael was honored at commence as a Commencement marshal for the School of communications ranking in the top point 5% of his class. So beyond Disney, Michael is an accessibility, consultant championing, inclusivity and work environments, virtual platforms and technology. Michael's journey actually exemplifies resilience and innovation and the power of inclusive design inspiring others to act, to dream big and to break barriers ready for your question. Michael.

Michael Smedley: Let's do it.

Michelle Witman: Okay. So you know, people call technology this magic bullet and the great equalizer. But are there areas where growth is still needed?

Michael Smedley: Absolutely. That's a great question. And Hello, everyone you know, as Michelle said, my name is Michael, and for years technology has been this magic bullet, and this great equalizer, as you put it, it was, you know. It took us out of the age of a Perkins brailleur in paper and put the braille note. Put Braille into digitally everyone's hands in a format that we could take with us and have books, multiple books on a USB drive instead of having, you know, 50 volumes of a book in hard copy braille screen readers made it so that we could come into the digital world and and compete in the same way as our sighted counterparts. Instead of needing accommodations. You know, I was able to get through audio production school using the same programs as all of my sighted counterparts, and compete in the same space without having to have dedicated systems that professors had to learn, or that I had to go teach myself to be able to keep pace. And it's it's always it's helped us catch up. But we kind of stand on this this new dawn that everyone's life is going digital and we, we need to figure out ways for us and screen reader users and magnification software users to continue innovating and growing alongside the the mainstream technological advancements. So, for for instance, I work in professional audio and coming from the analog world, all of our sound consoles. I'm sure you all have either seen pictures or heard about. There they were, these massive things with hundreds of knobs and dozens of slider faders that looked like something out of a space shuttle, that everything had a dedicated knob or a physical button or slider that was super convenient for someone who can't see to, to manipulate and learn how to master it. And now we've kind of moved into this digital world of audio, which is phenomenal because it takes our footprint down. It lets us move around more easily with consoles that are way smaller, and don't need a pallet, Jack, to lift them up, venue to venue. But a lot of them are reliant on touch screens and and less physical buttons, because that's less physical things that can go wrong, which is wonderful for our sighted folks, but a lot of them don't include screen readers or in their software that runs alongside the actual console on a PC. Or an ipad or a Mac isn't screen reader, compatible to voice over or jaws so suddenly this industry that everyone says, of course, you know you're a blind guy, of course you're going to work in audio. And the music scene. You know. Suddenly, we're I, kid you not. We are at a point where a lighting console is actually more accessible than most audio consoles right now. So I think it can be the great equalizer. And I've I've been fortunate to work with some companies to make their products accessible, but I think developing with everyone in mind not just getting the the product out the door quickly. Is what we all need to focus on in that space.

Michelle Witman: Like the great pause, go ahead, Mary Liz.

Mary Liz McNamara: Great. Now I'm going to take great honor to introduce Veronica Shiroka. I think she's the perfect person for this panel. Veronica Shiroka is the director of talent management at the Clinton Foundation. She is also a certified executive coach, and she works with clients, both internally and externally helping them reach their potential. So she comes to today's conversation. Wait a minute. In warmer weather let's not forget the personal interest. Veronica enjoys spending time in Fire Island with her partner and teenage daughter, and she comes to today's conversation both as a head of talent at the Clinton Foundation, and someone who is visually impaired herself. So we have kind of fantastic insights for us here on both sides. So the question for you, Veronica, to start with is, what is one step? I think I think this is as impossible as my question was to Phlip, what is one step blind and low vision talent could take today to really help their careers?

Veronika Shiroka: Thanks, Mary Liz. Hello! Everyone really excited to be here. And so one step that talent can take today is to find yourself both a sponsor and an ally within the current organization to which that perhaps you are working at, and what I mean by a sponsor is, rather than searching for a mentor which we're all pretty familiar with. You know what it means to to be in a mentor mentee relationship. A sponsor is someone that currently has a seat at the table, perhaps ideally at the leadership table for the organization to which that you're currently at, or perhaps one that you want to head to next, and that person already has a seat at the table, and they're the ones that are saying your name behind closed doors and so that the sole responsibility doesn't reside with you to be the advocate for your career. And so the more that you can create opportunity for your name to be said.You know, when they're talking about, you know who should lead this department or that department, or who's ready for promotion or whatnot. The more exposure that those that are currently at the table can have to your current set of talents and kind of elevate your work. More probability that that'll help get you to the next level. And what I mean by ally, finding yourself an ally, a term that many people are familiar with. It's you know, who within the org. Can again have those conversations. About you know, and raise your voice up or educate others. Or I'll give an example of a recent display of allyship in my current org to illustrate what it looks like. So, a couple of years ago, I was on the committee to plan our holiday party, and so I have an inherited retinal disease called retinitis pigmentosis. And so, and my vision is slowly declining. And so, and in low lighting, my vision is considerably diminished. And so 3 years ago, when I had a seat at the table and was planning a holiday party, the event space I chose was one with tons of lights. And so this, this past year I was not on the planning committee, and we happened to have had our holiday party in a bar, which, of course, in New York City, tends to be a lot of low lighting, and so, you know, I put a note out to a colleague to inquire about what the lighting situation was going to be. She knows about my condition and some other accommodations that I've requested in my current role. And she said, you know, I’ll be happy to ask them to leave the house lights on. And so it's just a really good reminder for me that to to make the ask, and and sometimes I don't have to be the only one making the ask that I can rely on my colleagues as well.

Mary Liz McNamara: Thank you, Veronica. I have a lot of follow up questions with that. But I'm gonna save them. I'm gonna hold on to them and go back to Michelle to introduce them.

Michelle Witman: Like we're sitting here biting our tongues with the anticipation of wanting to.

Mary Liz McNamara: No, no, don't! Don't!

Michelle Witman: Now I know I'm not going to, but I would love to introduce our final panelist, Everette Bacon, Everette Bacon is the chief of blindness initiatives at Aira, where he oversees and advises on the customer experience of Aira's blind and low vision explorers. He came to Aira in 2023, after 18 years of public service, working for the Utah State Division of services for the Blind. Before this he was a regional store training manager for Blockbuster Video overseeing 10 stores in the Houston area. Everette is very active in the National Federation of the Blind, and currently serves as the second Vice President on the Board of Directors. Everette lives in Salt Lake City, Utah, with his wife, a medical neurologist, and their 3 dogs

Michelle Witman: ready, Everette. Here we go. Would you.

Everette Bacon: Ready!

Michelle Witman: Could you please tell us a little bit about your background? And really we want to know how you came to work for Aira.

Everette Bacon: Oh, sure. Okay, I got the easy question. That's nice. Well, my background. So I come from hereditary blindness. So I am completely blind myself. Our eye condition on my mom's side of the family is cone rod. Dystrophy goes back some 13 generations. It's an autosomal, dominant gene so pretty much. You roll the dice, and if you get snake eyes you got it. If you got, you know, sevens, I guess you didn't. So and it, it starts out with a little bit of vision. You know, a little bit of functional vision, and then gradually goes away. So I'm I'm in my fifties. Now. I've been completely blind since my late thirties. And just, you know, starting out and growing up as an individual with low vision. You kind of learn how to use whatever functional vision you have, and you do the best you can, adapting to situations, as Veronica mentioned, whether it be low lighting or things like that, and you you adapt as you go. But you are still using a lot of your functional vision. You don't really get a lot of blindness skills until you really need it. And and about in my twenties is when I started really needing it. And that's when my vision decreased to a level that I started needing, needing more things like magnification and and even more tactile information. I came to Texas from California with my family. I grew up in California, but then came to Texas with my family, and went to college at a little college in Dallas Dallas Baptist University. Did my undergrad in in music education. I loved performing, but I found out that I didn't really like teaching, and so after I got my degree I taught 7th grade choir and music for a couple of years, and I just found that that wasn't for me. I went to work for blockbuster video. At the time I also got married and met my wife. My wife wanted to go to medical school, and so that meant that I needed to, you know, make sure that we had food on the table, and I had to pay the bills so because she was going to be training for quite some time. And so I went to work for Blockbuster Video as a store manager worked my way up to a regional training store manager managed 10 stores in Houston, but all the time my vision was diminishing, and Blockbuster was a big company at the time, but they weren't equipped to really understand or work with an individual who was going blind and managing stores. And so I ended up leaving Blockbuster Video. My wife got a residency here at the University of Utah Hospital, and so we moved to Utah and a division at the, or, a position at the division of services for the blind came available, and and so I applied, and I got the position. It was great because I was able to start my way up in working with blind individuals in helping them understand how to be blind and learning technology and other home management skills. And I worked my way up to a technology specialist, a supervisor of the low vision technology and career development. And then all of all of that, and then ended up, you know, being part of the leadership team at the division of services for the blind. All that time. I was also moving my way up with the National Federation of the Blind. I got involved in my local organization in Utah, became a chapter President, got elected to the Utah State Board of Directors, became President of the NFB of Utah, and then eventually was elected to the National Board of Directors. And so Aira, I came to Aira because I was a user of the product. Aira came on the scene. In 2015 I started. I was a pretty early adopter. I thought the product was outstanding for me to get quick visual information, especially when I'm moving about in the world, going to airports traveling from city to city, and I'm not a big fan of walking, sighted guide or or anything. I like to kind of independently travel myself. and so, and I use a white cane, and I feel very comfortable using a white cane, but getting access to signs and getting access to you know what's around me is is not always readily available. There's a lot of different apps and tools I use, but you know. I found that Aira was the quickest at getting me what I wanted, and so I could get to my destination and where I wanted to go. And so I was able to to kind of work and bring Aira to a lot of places. Aira is a subscription service for blind people and not blind people can't afford a lot of subscription services. And so I worked a lot with business partners on allowing Aira to be free all over Utah and across the country. And so Aira had a position where they wanted a blind person on their leadership team, and they approached me. And so that's where I'm at now chief of blindness initiatives. I work directly with all of the leaders at Aira, and and we work to advance our product to help blind and low vision. Individuals maintain and and even gain independence.

Mary Liz McNamara: That's fantastic. I this is to either Phlip or to Everette. Could you just give us a thumbnail version of like what Aira is for those people who are listening who may not fully understand what the product is?

Everette Bacon: You want me to go, Phlip, Phlip.

Phlip Wilson: Sure we go for it, boss.Everette Bacon: Okay? Sure. So Aira is a visual interpreting service that allows a blind individual to through a smartphone app. They can get access to visual information through the camera. We have trained visual interpreters who go through a rigorous training program to become agents and allowed to work with our blind and low vision customers. It is a subscription service. We do collaborate with a lot of different companies. We are on the Meta Ray-Ban glasses. So if you don't want to use your phone, you can use the Meta Ray-Ban glasses. You can also use Aira on your desktop computer. So if you want access to information with your desktop computer, and you need a visual interpreter to help you with that. Aira can do that as well. We've also kind of jumped into the deaf and hard-of-hearing space. We have a separate app called Aira ASL, and we're just rolling that out and working with deaf and hard-of-hearing individuals to get on demand. ASL interpreting.

Phlip Wilson: Awesome. Yeah. Part of my.

Mary Liz McNamara: That's a tool.

Phlip Wilson: But part of why we're here, too, is like, we're trying to put our put our money where our mouth is right. Aira gives out free minutes to users every day for any job, seeking tasks to help them find employment. And we are also like one of our priorities is getting into college campuses, because that's a place where you learn to request an accommodation. Once you have it there, you often have more confidence, requesting that accommodation. When you go to the workplace and employees of Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and the Federal Government all have access to Aira as an accommodation in their workplace.

Mary Liz McNamara: Fantastic.

Michelle Witman: So I guess we'll now officially open it up. You know, and and and let y'all lead the way unless we're happy to lob a question at you, but it seems like there was so much talk already through your introductions around, you know Michael, and the innovative technology and the and the need for continued innovation. And here we have Aira, who is part of that technology, this potential technology solutions? And then Veronica, with some of what you said. I'm fascinated to hear from everybody on the panel, you know. If I were a participant, an attendee at this work at this webinar right now, and I'm looking for how do we create sponsors? Right? Who do we look for to become sponsors? What would be your recommendation of? Who would you want at the table, and what what learning would you want them to have? We're just some of my initial thoughts that we can jump into? But really, the.

Mary Liz McNamara: The qualities of a great sponsor. Besides that, they're in, they have a seat at the table. But what else do they need to know, and what do they need to be able to do? To be effective.

Veronika Shiroka: I can kick things off. I think a couple of things. I I think that. And I I come at this again from from 2 perspectives as as someone that manages the the talent management function at the you know, at the Clinton Foundation and thinking about the work that we're doing? That we continue to do from a diversity, equity and inclusion from a DE and I perspective and how we continue to educate all of our leaders and our people, managers on how they can show up as inclusive leaders, and how they can foster belonging. And you know, rather than I, I was on a call yesterday, where an employee declined an assignment that was given to this particular employee. And so and and the senior leader was like, you know, that's completely unacceptable. And so I stepped in and encouraged the senior leader to be curious why this employee declined, and so, rather than again making the assumptions which again, I know, many assumptions are made, especially for people with disabilities, and especially, for you know, low vision and blind community about what we can and can't do, you know. So, finding a leader who is curious, you know, about about all the contributions, and that perhaps, if there's any hesitation, as I just gave the example that occurred yesterday, you know, being curious by that. And so someone who, as a leader displays inclusive leadership. And so I think that's that's someone that is that's a really important component for for someone to have, so that if resistance is brought up when your name is shared. That leader has the ability to to advocate.

Mary Liz McNamara: And go ahead. Things that you're bringing up here is that it's not something to be kind of added to the sauce at the last minute. It's not something where you can identify somebody who would could be a good sponsor. And then, oh, we're going to teach them a little bit about empathy and inclusion, but that that is kind of part of the training part of the culture of of the organization. In order to prepare everybody to be inclusive, and to be able those specialty to be able to sponsor well.

Veronika Shiroka: Okay? And I'm also just one other quick thought. You know, I I've worked for various organizations. And you know, certain organizations are indeed, certain organizations slash certain leaders are certainly more inclusive, and it's certainly very mindful of that that in certain environments it's easier to make the ask. It's easier to find a sponsor. You know certain environments, certain organizations, certain leaders, you know, it would feel, you know, nearly impossible. And so, being mindful of all of that.

Mary Liz McNamara: Right.

Michelle Witman: I mean, like I want to kick it.

Mary Liz McNamara: Stuff.

Michelle Witman: No, I wanna kick it back over because in some of the pre conversations we had with Michael, you gave some really solid examples of workplace culture, and also identifying when is it when people come with assumptions? Which is what Veronica spoke about a little bit versus? Where is there? Where are people? Where do you find people making assumptions and or withholding assumptions and coming from places of curiosity? And I would love to get your opinion or your input on on what Veronica's just talked about.

Michael Smedley: Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, as we've all said, and I'm sure a lot of us experience. There's a lot of assumption and a lot of decisions that are made before we even walk into a room. As soon as someone sees, you know, a white cane or a guide dog walk into an interview room. People have a lot of conceptions, You know, that are what they are, what they are. And what I've I found a lot of success finding advocates and sponsors in the workplace that are, you know, going to that for you on your behalf, to leadership behind closed doors like Veronica talked about is half of it, but it's also got to be someone in my experience that isn't afraid to hold you accountable to say, you know, coming out of those rooms, hey? These are the conversations that are having, or this is the skill set that people are curious about how you're gonna navigate when you take the next step, and someone who's, you know, willing to be open and transparent, and also say, You know, how are you gonna do this or brainstorm with you as someone that's been in those shoes before someone that's you know, not afraid to just sugarcoat it. And you know, to tell you how it is. This is what the concern is, how are you going to meet the concern, or how do we work together to overcome it?

Mary Liz McNamara: Can you tell the story about the construction site?

Michael Smedley: Yeah.

Mary Liz McNamara: Yes, sir.

Michael Smedley: No, you're good.

Michael Smedley: You know I was working on a project and I was assigned to assist a designer on it, and you know I was talking to leadership about what my role was going to be, and he, the designer, came to me the one day and was like, hey? You know. This is what's going on out in the field, I said. Great, you know. Let me know when I can come out there and help you work on programming and overseeing contractors and verifying installation. All that. And he was like, well, you know, it's an active worksite, and I'm I'm a little bit concerned about you out there, and I was like, trust me, I get it. I'm probably the most cautious person on a construction site I've been working in arenas for 5 years. I've worked with major touring companies of these as they've come through venues that I've worked with. I fly speakers, I build staging. I I'm still here to tell the tale but you know I I'm not some hotshot 20-something-year-old that's gonna jump off of decks or say, Oh, I can do this like I I'm out there taking the precautions. To make sure that I'm safe. The folks around me are safe because there there are eyes on us when we're out there in the world doing whatever it is that we do. Folks are waiting for an excuse to say, Nope, see? Told you this isn't safe, or this isn't viable. So a lot of us come prepared with 120% of what we need to do to do our jobs.

Mary Liz McNamara: Well, it's in a way it's bias that's masked as concern.

Michael Smedley: Yeah.

Mary Liz McNamara: And and then it's excused by people, or they're not fully kind of examining it, because they think, Oh, I'm actually, I'm being a good person. I'm being concerned about somebody's welfare, and it actually is the impediment for people's success. I was very interested in both Veronica and Everette talking about, you know, change of vision during your working years. Looking back, can you think of anything in your organizations and in your career path that would have made it easier, or that even from your own perspective, you might have done differently as your vision changed.

Everette Bacon: I I probably would have attempted to learn braille at a much younger age. I didn't get an opportunity to learn Braille until I was in my thirties and Braille is not a language. Braille is a code and a way to read, and we learn to read as children. And if if, because your your brain is a sponge, and it's so much easier to learn at that time, and that's why we teach children how to read, and I was taught to read with my eyes even though I had a hereditary eye condition that was going to degenerate over time, and I was never taught to read with my fingers and process information that way. And so you can do it in your thirties. It's not an impossible or any type of feat of like that. But it does take time and effort and energy, and when you are working, and you are, you know, having a family and having a household and doing all the things you have to do in life. You don't have time to stop and and concentrate on a specific task like, you know, learning braille. And so if I if I if I could tell my younger self, I would have said, Take a year off and and go and get some specific time to learn braille and and really polish up on that tool, because I think I'd be a better communicator as far as a reading a speech, and doing all of the things that you know great presenters do, and and Braille would help with that. I I read now. I read audibly most of the time, and I do read with braille some, but audible reading is is a very good way to read. Many blind people have been doing it, for, you know, hundreds of years now, but it's still processing in a different way than actual reading is. And so I think that's something that we've had to adapt to and and get better at over time. But but you know there's a reason why so many people still read visually, and and you know, getting understanding that way, especially if you're if you've taught your brain how to process visual information. And now you've got to change everything to process audibly, or, you know, through tactile.

Mary Liz McNamara: Perfect. And Veronica anything, either from your perspective or from an organization's perspective, where you think of how do you prepare to support the potential visual changes. Is there anything that you think of that organizations should be doing that they're not doing now?

Veronika Shiroka: I'll share from my perspective, and then I'll also share from an org perspective. I think on my end. What I would have told my younger self is that I would have raised my hand and asked for an accommodation sooner. So you know I I requested a larger monitor, and it took me a while to get to that. And then. So I've been currently at the Clinton Foundation for 9 years. And so, and of course, within that 9 years Covid happened. And so you know, I was going into the office 5 days a week before Covid, and and like many other orgs. We went fully remote, and as a part of that we entered into the zoom world where documents were shared, you know, on in a zoom room, and so all of a sudden, I found myself unexpectedly I was adjusting to remote work, but then, kind of the additional adjustment of like, oh, you know my my larger monitor, isn't accommodating for a shared zoom document. And so and then, you know, going for that next request. And so Mary, less. Something you said actually, in our prep call was just a really good reminder, I think, from an organizational perspective, that many times when accommodation is made you know our our accommodation shouldn't be seen as a one and done, set in stone. We're never going to revisit this again, and so I think from an organizational perspective, I came out of that call. And because of the role that I hold at the organization, I engage in the interactive process when someone is looking for an accommodation. And so it's just a really good reminder for me to to periodically check in in the event that that the accommodation needs to change or a new one needs to happen, or as we returned to the office, you know, an additional combination that I requested was during during the winter months. It gets dark at 5 Pm. And so, you know, I need to leave the office before it gets dark. And so it was just, you know, a really good reminder through my own lived experience as well as then, and as I'm supporting employees that that, you know, request for accommodations are really fluid.

Mary Liz McNamara: Right and keep the interactive, the interactive process open.

Veronika Shiroka: Correct.

Everette Bacon: I wanted to add something to. You know we were talking about employment for blind people, and especially blind and low vision individuals getting into leadership positions. Opportunity is definitely one of the things that has to happen. Sometimes opportunities are given and sometimes opportunities are created and taken, and I think ultimately many of us have probably experienced that in some some shape or form. One of the things, though that's very interesting is in in when blind people go, you know, and attempt to try to find a job. I worked in management for many, many years and and went to these human resources workshops. And one of the biggest things because of of legal issues out there, and and fear based teaching that that was taught human resource. Managers and hiring managers were taught. You can't ask any questions about someone's with disability, you can't ask any. And so now, if you already are an individual who's a hiring manager, and you have some misconceptions that Michael talked about. Well, now, the blind or disabled individual who's in front of you seeking employment. They're already kind of behind an 8 ball because of the the way human resource managers were taught in a fear-based setting. I think that is changing over time, but but it is a it's a, it's a long game, change it. It still exists out there for many of us. And so many of us as individuals with disabilities. We have to be more proactive and advocate for ourselves. And that's not always easy, you know, doesn't come naturally to a lot of people. And and so it's something we have to kind of learn how to do. Some of us are more natural at it than others, and and you know, I think it's important for us that it does come natural that we relay and and help, you know, teach and mentor other individuals to be able to learn how to advocate for themselves so they can get ahead and get the opportunities that are out there.

Michelle Witman: You know, Everette, so much of what you said makes what what you all are saying makes so much much sense. You know, when Mary Liz and I started Asset Based Consulting, we really tried. We knew that the conversation needed to change in the corporate setting because it wasn't working, right? So we really, we really worked with organizations to start the conversations and ask the questions with, you know, what do you need employee to be successful here, right? And so asking it, and and engaging actually in the discourse, starting with questions, not avoiding questions right, but really engaging with the employee to say, like, What do you need to be successful? And then having those part, those conversations alongside or or with so it's interesting that we're looping back around to that. You know, when we talk about, I'm throwing this out to everybody, you know, workforce development space, right? One of the things that we so frequently see is there's opportunities to help identify, to grow skills and to develop the skills and then also find employment. But one of the areas that I'm curious about is continued opportunities in the workforce development space around growing leadership skills. And where have you found the opportunities for particularly the blind, low vision community to continue to develop and nurture their leadership skills beyond getting in the door. But within the, you know, you know, with opportunities to ascend within organizations.

Michelle Witman: did I say? Stumbling.

Mary Liz McNamara: You stumped.

Everette Bacon: Oh, no! No!

Veronika Shiroka: Okay.

Everette Bacon: I think we all. I don't want to talk over the other. Go ahead, Michael. You go first.

Michael Smedley: Cool. That's 1 of the lovely parts about zoom panels. No. In in my organization it's been just because of the nature of the work. It's not necessarily that it's for people with or without disabilities. Blindness. It's it's just part of the job. So you know, it's it's getting your foot in the door and and getting hired in the 1st place. But then it's really been trial by fire of okay. Great. You know you're assigned to this project. Go, lead this team, go, lead and install, go, you know. Make sure that a system gets tuned, and it's it's been a similar trajectory to my, to my sighted coworkers.

Michelle Witman: Good deal.

Mary Liz McNamara: Want to jump in on that.

Everette Bacon: So the the biggest thing I I've seen in in development is, there are a lot of agencies and organizations that that do employ blind and low vision individuals. But but one of the the problems is and Phlip really mentioned this in his, you know, very 1st presentation is that you don't see blind or low vision individuals leading those organizations. You see them get hired at entry level positions, and they might move up to maybe managing a very small team, but you don't see them managing a large team, and and it's a little more rare. And yet these organizations and agencies out there. They employ the the vast majority of blind and low vision individuals across the country. And so that's where I hope. And you know, work, and I think it organizations like National Federation of the Blind, are working to change that dichotomy to where we get more individuals who are blind and low vision in leadership positions when they are going to work. And it's a twofold blind and low vision. Individuals have to make sure that they have the skill, level, and training and background to lead. But also we would like to see more of these agencies and organizations provide the opportunity for the blind individual to flourish and and become a leader of many.

Mary Liz McNamara: It's like looking how, how do you prepare blind, low vision individuals to tell the story about themselves that points to leadership. To reframe their story as they're speaking with their managers and their potential employees and their colleagues and just friends and family, that that reinforces this idea of their potential, their worth and their leadership skills. There's something that has to do with how do I tell my own story? How do I present myself to the world? How can how can I think I direct this to Michael because you're involved in storytelling? I mean, how do you use your own personal experience to make your brand, to support yourself, to build leadership opportunities for yourself.

Michael Smedley: Yeah, it's, you know, it's really been interesting. Circling back to kind of this conversation about conceptions and and getting in the door. In the 1st place this whole world of virtual interviews and hiring has been a really fun social experiment about how interviews go in person versus online, because online. You know, we're sitting here in front of a zoom screen and can kind of get in front of that story and tell it our way and spin it. You know it's it's the classic PR thing. Get in front of the the crisis and spin it in a positive way. So I I think I have the the easy card of the cheat code of I work in audio so to me it's low hanging fruit of you know. Why, Disney, why, you know, this is the interview question I got as an intern years ago. Why, why, Disney, why audio? And I was like, it's you know, it's my world, it's it's something that it's what I pay attention to. There's no visual distraction. It's how I engage with the world. And it's it is a hundred percent of what I do. So when you spin it in that way of like, this is the strength. And here's why it's it's a very different conversation of Oh, wow! You know, this person wants to come work in and in this, in this organization, and it's an asset that you know they perceive the world very differently and listen to everything is a primary way of interacting with the world instead of well, how are we going to make this work.

Michelle Witman: And you're in an organization that's double downed or committed to as they have their leadership programs for everyone making those programs inclusive and accessible, so that you have similar opportunities to rise within. Yeah.

Michael Smedley: Yeah, I've been. I've been very fortunate in this organization to have folks that are approaching it from what can we do to make things more accessible. Instead of you know. What kind of how? How are you possibly going to do this? It's what what do you need from us as an organization to succeed here.

Mary Liz McNamara: Right.

Veronika Shiroka: I think the 2 words that come to mind for me, just as I think about my own journey and skills to which that certainly have strengthened in my world as I continue on my vision. Loss, journey, are adaptability and creativity. And so you know, as as I think about ways that I continue to creatively adapt you know, functioning in a sided world. And bringing those skills, then in turn into the working world when it comes to problem-solving. And so and and just as you mentioned Michael, this idea of if you think about this from a PR perspective and storytelling and curating your own narrative right? The ability to to kick things off and and share your your own narrative ahead of you know when those assumptions ideally are made.

Mary Liz McNamara: Hmm.

Phlip Wilson: I can. I'll just go ahead and call the the sighted community as as one myself on the carpet, and say, we have, like a blind community visibility and audibility issue. And so if the primary audience of this is sighted, people hey, like, be proactive. There's someone in your office, you know there's all these. I am engaged in sales right? So a really great buyer of Aira is JFK Airport, because every half hour to hour they announce to the whole airport. Aira is available here. So if you're a sighted person, you hear that you hear that accessibility feature, a lot of people would see that as audio pollution or noise pollution right? And they don't want to do that because it'll annoy sighted people or something, and that's probably also why bathrooms don't announce when you're walking by them or other things like that. Right? If you go to NFB. And you walk by a bunch of tables, you're going to hear what each of those tables is, because there's a cultural assumption of like, how the space works and how people interact with each other. You're going to know where the entrance is to the entrance hall as you walk by, because there's a barker standing out front yelling. This is what the presentation is that's going on here and so I don't know I here's here's a shame point for me. I interpreted a deaf poetry event, and one of the presenters was a deafblind poet. And I later met this person through email. And I said, Oh, I met you at this event, and he said, Oh, were you the such and such interpreter. And I was like, No, I'm the other. I'm this guy. And I realized I hadn't actually met him. I had seen him at that space because we hadn't made physical contact. I hadn't introduced myself to him as a working interpreter at the event that he was receiving interpreting services at and so I hadn't met him, so he had no frame of reference for who I was. So if you're not actively engaging with your blind coworkers and peers, and actively inviting them out to spaces. Then you're you're edging them out inadvertently by not proactively thinking of that.

Mary Liz McNamara: Right.

Michelle Witman: Right. Yeah. Go ahead. Michael.

Michael Smedley: It's funny you mentioned JFK, and that they make that announcement. And I'm sitting here going. You know the amount of of times that I, as a patron of whatever, like a theatrical performance, a movie, a concert there have been so many times that I was like, Wow! I wish this thing had audio description, because maybe one person doesn't know that there is, or I just didn't think to ask, based off of other events and similar venues and then finding out later like, Oh, it did have it. And you know now it's something that I want to go back and experience. If if we were able to take the JFK model. And you know we all have in entertainment. There's advertisements everywhere, and there's pre show music and pre show announcements and safety lectures, and all of that, and, you know, just advertising verbally, you know, there's signs for audio description where to pick it up, and that's completely defeats the purpose, dude, but it's, you know, it's this audio signage thing that I think would be, how do we incorporate it into into mediums that already exist?

Phlip Wilson: Hmm.

Everette Bacon: Yeah, access to visual information is definitely a barrier that blind and low vision individuals face every day. I'm still amazed at how much print and pictures there are, you know, driving in a car sighted people are are bombarded with billboards and you know those those billboards are constantly giving them visual information about anything and everything. And you know, we as blind individuals. The only way we can get that same experience is by having some way to read those signs. Now, technology is helping with that. AI is helping with that. Aira is helping with that. But it's a barrier that many of us have faced for for many years. And so you know, understanding all of that. Is something that we have to continue to. To. You know, make make known to the the world in general.

Michelle Witman: You know. Phlip, you brought up a a good point around, you know there's just a lack of visibility right? And that that we all need to do our part, and and and the attendees on the call, one of the asks, they're always frequently saying, like, you know, what's one thing, what's one? And we usually refer to it as like invitations. You know, what is one action step I can take today to make that change, whether it's in within their organization, whether they are an individual who is blind and or has low vision and are looking to advance their own leadership. And or they're in an organization, and they want to increase visibility and provide those avenues. So for our last, it's like 1253. For our last round of this question. I would love to hear from everybody, you know one piece of advice, both one piece of advice, for you know, blind, low vision, professional, aspiring to a leadership role and a piece of advice for people in terms of increasing visibility within organizations and advancing leadership. So I will kick it off and ask Veronica to jump in, and then we'll take questions at the end. If there are questions from the peanut gallery. Go ahead, Veronica.

Veronika Shiroka: I'll I'll tell you what comes to mind. Don't do it alone. I I think, Everette, you mentioned that sometimes, you know making the ask can can be a lot and I've I've seen that I've experienced that myself. I've, you know, sat across the table with employees. That I know it. It took them tremendous courage to make an ask. And and you know, for an accommodation. And so just yeah, really encourage you to to not do it alone and and give yourself grace you know, to to do it on a timeline, whatever it may be, whatever that ask may be, or whatever adaptation you may need. You know that you'll do it when you're ready. So, and I think, just from a visibility perspective, I think just continuing to follow our own stories. My experience has been a great way to continue to educate my colleagues, and I'll share a quick example. I was at a team meeting, and I was sharing a bit more about my condition and answering some questions, and then, a week later we had shared Workspace at work where? You come in and you just select a space to which that you know, is available. And I. Some of the spaces do not have monitors and I require a monitor, and so it's just one morning I walked in right. After sharing that story with my team, and my colleague said, You know, hey, Veronica, come over here. I saved a monitor for you, and so it was just such a display of inclusion and and made a huge deposit in my bank. And so it's just a really good reminder again of the impact that storytelling can have.

Mary Liz McNamara: Who wants to jump in.

Everette Bacon: I'll go a second. So I I would say to blind and low vision individuals and professionals out there. I think it's it's really important to have a posse. Have some people that you can can relate to that that you can go to and seek advice from, or even offer your advice from that you can collaborate with. I believe that's why organizations like NFB are so important. I have a collective amount of friends in the blind community, some in high leadership roles, some in entry level roles, and and I've been able to to work with so many individuals across the country and gain perspective. Give my perspective. And and it's just I wouldn't be where I am today without that posse. And I really think that's important for blind and low vision individuals to get. You can do it on your own, but it's harder. And I think if you have a collective organization behind you. It just makes the whole journey a little bit easier. The thing I'd probably say to people in the sighted world is, remember, a mantra that has existed amongst all disability spaces, nothing about us without us. So if you want to create something for blind or low vision, individuals, whether it be technology or a space, or whatever include us in the process. If you're wanting to make a movie or a documentary about a particular blind individual, or something related to blindness or low vision include blind and low vision people. The process, I think it makes the entire experience so much more believable when when blind or low vision. People are included in the process from the beginning. At the development stage. It just makes it so much more usable for all blind people, and it helps individuals in the sighted world understand and comprehend better the experience that we are going through, and that we have lived.

Michelle Witman: Thank you, Everette. Michael.

Michael Smedley: Yeah, I loved your comment about find your posse. And you know I talked a lot at a conference the other month about find your ride or die in the workplace, especially in, you know the entertainment world, but for everywhere folks that get promoted into leadership positions are charismatic and generally well liked. So you know, to me it's it's aside from work, it's the water, the water, cooler conversations of. I'm a Penn State grad. One of the guys on my team is an Ohio State grad, and we just give each other a hard time about stupid things like sports to build that the relationship and break down the the barriers of you know. How is this person going to fit in on the team, proving that you can gel with the team and that you're you are part of the team makes folks a lot more receptive to, hey? We have to go across properly. Do you need a ride, or you know, one of my one of my coworkers. He'll come into the office to show a meme on his phone, and instead of saying. oh, you can't see this. It's blah blah! He'll come into my office and say, Dude, you'll never guess this insane meme that I just saw, and he's telling me about it as he's handing the phone around to everyone else. It's just it's it's community, it's it's not it's not inclusion built in after the fact. It's just. It's what we do.

Mary Liz McNamara: Fantastic Phlip any last minute, last minute, last second.

Phlip Wilson: No, I don't know. Yeah, I think everybody else here is far wiser than I am. And I say, I tip my hat to that. And yeah, I would just say, I don't know. To sighted people, yeah, introduce yourself, do what they've just been stating works like become a part of someone's posse if they're in the room with you, and you didn't say your name, you weren't in the room with them. So that's your visibility problem. You made yourself invisible on purpose. So by accident, you know, let's not. I don't want to point any fingers, but you're all probably have the best eyesight you'll ever have right now and the more like compassionate, inclusive world that we build for our future. We're all gonna be more disabled when 30 years from now than we are now. The more that we build that the better our futures will be. We're all on this boat together.Michelle Witman: You know, I'll just, I'll say, I think, inclusion. I you know we're we're right at the top of the hour, and we wanna honor everyone's time. We're grateful that you're here, and I think, like we can move forward and be like, you know it. Just it's time to find the posse, you know, like everybody is welcome. Come, join, you know. Be a part of everyone's posse like that's great. Everette. Friday. It goes down with everyone, needs to go find a posse, and we're happy.

Mary Liz McNamara: Thank you, Panelists.

Michelle Witman: You all.

Mary Liz McNamara: For your time and your insights. We learned a lot as Michelle and I. You know we facilitate the conversation. But really we're just lucky to listen to the insights that you bring. So thank you. So.

Michelle Witman: And I will also say in the chat our tech person has put in Freedom for the Blind to get, you know, information out as we heard about it. You know, early on so. And there's information on following up, and we'll follow up with everybody and get everyone a recording of this as well. We're thrilled that these webinars have been innovative and really helpful and strategic and helping people and organizations leadership. Bye, everybody.

Everette Bacon: Thank you.

Phlip Wilson: Bye. Thank you.